Posted by M. Wright | Filed in: Uncategorized
But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’
Fishkite has clashed with Wendi Thomas before on the issue of gay marriage. That earlier post, however, was dedicated to the Biblical view of marriage, rather than the legal aspect of it. Today, the columnist’s willful ignorance of the fundamental religious foundation of marriage, as included above, persists, and is now applied to the constitutional decision before us in this election, previously chewed on below.
In that recent post, I observe that critics of the amendment tend to resort to three main things: 1. Ad hominem attacks, 2. a claim that it presents a problem only for homosexuals, and 3. a claim that the amendment is redundant and unnecessary.
Thomas hits all the points in the playbook, beginning of course with a heavy dose of name-calling (Point 1.); she calls proponents of Amendment One “foolish,” “irrational,” “radical” “homophobes,” and describes them as racists who are who are stuck in “Groundhog day.”
Next, she claims that voting against the amendment would open the door only to homosexual couples (Point 2.):
[T]he radical religious right and many Republicans whine that if gay men and lesbians are allowed to marry today, then tomorrow I might demand the right to marry my dog. And my first cousin. And three or four other people, a couple of whom might be small children.
Of course, that hysteria is silly and foolish and irrational.
All that’s left is for Thomas is to claim that such an amendment is unnecessary, given the federal and state laws that are already on the books (Point 3.), a message she delivers with artistic abandon, describing the situation as “a legal version of suspenders to go along with the belt” and “an ugly, too-tight girdle to be worn on top of the pants, restricting all blood flow to the brain.”
One-two-three, there’s your column. Thanks for playing.
But what Thomas of course fails to mention is yesterday’s New Jersey court ruling, which forces legislators to change state marriage laws:
Opponents of same-sex marriage contend the New Jersey decision could have a national impact because the state imposes no residency requirements for people seeking marriage. In essence, it could open the door for gay and lesbian couples from other states to marry in New Jersey and challenge laws against same-sex marriage in their own states.
And when the formula for marriage is no longer two adult members of the opposite sex, it’s not just “hysteria” which leads a reasonable person to conclude it won’t be long before polygamists sue for similar rights, followed by incestuous couples, and so on. It’s just that, for the time being, gay rights advocates — in a smart move, politically — leave these groups out in the cold while simultaneously claiming that “love does not discriminate” and calling out the religious right on that very charge.
The long and short of it is that Thomas, and her heroes in the local Democratic party, are nowhere near as enlightened, or as Biblically sound, as she apparently believes.
Now, in my earlier post I also offered three reasons why I hesitate to support Amendment One, followed by some counter-arguments, and left it with a “likely-yes” stance. I also engaged a little bit in the comments, coming up with a rough comparison in order to give the issue some further thought. And I’ve been doing more thinking off the page as well. Then I happened to come across a post from last summer where I reacted to a church’s decision to approve gay marriage, followed by a discussion in the comments where I wrote this:
Reading about this episode has actually increased my opposition to gay marriage, at least from a Christian standpoint. The secular argument is far better, and I take a more libertarian view of the issue as a citizen. It’s a difficult issue for me only in that our government attaches unique rights and responsibilities to the legal aspect of marriage, which could be viewed, in a sense, as discriminatory. However, the solution to that is not to change marriage, but rather to change government.
It really challenges me to examine my thinking, and forces me to decide if I want government to be in the marriage business at all. As a Christian (one who, unlike Thomas, has at least a passing familiarity with the Bible), I cannot support gay marriage; as a citizen, I cannot support discrimination.
Of course, some say the amendment isn’t discriminatory (see discussion in Point 2), and they’re right in a sense. But I’m having a hard time coming up with purely legal, non-religious reasons why the government should support one contract between two people, and offer them certain rights and advantages, while denying others. And those commenting in my earlier post are asking what harm this presents to marriage — a fair question. And what affects would it have on society, as with adoption laws?
The Family Research Council addresses these questions, and other good ones, here. Among other things, they argue that the government should support marriage because children in traditional families do better in life, and because marriages are the very building blocks which propagate our species. They also argue that men and women should not be seen as interchangeable parts, that society’s view of marriage will relax and cause all marriages to suffer.
Some of it I agree with, some of it I don’t. I’m having a hard time with the issue, myself. I fear I’m going to be haunted by my decision. Part of my problem is that I’m so fed up with the Left’s hatred of religious people and its abandonment of morality that it clouds the issue, and Wendi Thomas only adds to the haze.
But, overall, it just comes back to what you think a government should and shouldn’t do. And I guess that’s something every person needs to decide individually. Everyone should be aware, though, that voting against the amendment means you’re ready for gay marriage to be legal in this state, despite the Left’s assurances to the contrary. If you aren’t comfortable with gay marriage, sitting out the vote is not an option, because the lawsuits are coming. And, with activist judges at the helm — those who can rewrite the laws on a whim — even passing the amendment is no guarantee marriage will remain as God intended.
October 26th, 2006 at 7:56 am
The Federal Constitution gives the Federal govenment limited and specific powers. It leaves to the ’states’ or the ‘people’ the rest of the power.
Banning gay marriage is one of those things.
Putting it in the State Constitution is OK and if you don’t like it, move to a state that allows it.
Vote yes on 1, or, vote with your feet.
October 26th, 2006 at 8:23 am
Are we voting for “gay” marriage or “open” marriage? Really, it’s not about being “gay”, is it? It’s about opening up legal “marriage” to whomever wants to sign the sheet.
Really, it’s about benefits such as medical and legal status.
Heck with gay. I’m straight, and if “open” marriage is legalized, and I was single, I’d marry anyone with better benefits than me, male or female.
Actually, open marriage would REALLY benefit siblings who are fresh out of college. If one brother got a good job with family benefits, why not “marry” his other siblings to take advantage of the situation and benefits? Why not?
It all SOUNDS odd, but it makes perfect sense.
Then again, IF open marriage is legalized, you can BET insurance companies will drop family benefits ASAP.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:29 am
And, with activist judges at the helm — those who can rewrite the laws on a whim — even passing the amendment is no guarantee marriage will remain as God intended.
Anmd if a judge interpreted the legal definition of marriage “as God intended,” are you saying that he would not be an “activist judge”?
All of this comes back to the point I made in an earlier comment. The law does not define marriage, it recognizes marriage and accords it appropriate legal protections. So when the law recognizes a broader scope of protectable marriage unions, that is not a redefinition of marriage, nor is it an activist judge or legislature intruding on God’s intentions.
Also see the recent post on my blog for an argument in favor of same-sex marriage that you may not have already considered. It’s an argument that gays won’t be making, but people in your camp might.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:42 am
Supporting or opposing a definition of marriage based on your own interpretation of what “God intended” is the right of every American. Putting a law in place based on someone’s interpretation of what “God intended” is unconstitutional. This is a legal issue that will be fought out in many courts — state and federal — over the next few years. All the laws/amendments, etc. in the world aren’t going to change that. That’s what my God thinks, anyway. But then He thinks He created gays and they should be treated like every other human He created, however “flawed” some may perceive them to be. It’s that whole pesky “Golden Rule”, “Love thy neighbor” thing. But maybe an “activist” judge got to him.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
No, bob, if the judge ruled based on anything other than the law, he would be an activist judge. As it stands now, the law recognizes marriage as God intended. Thus, redefining marriage by judicial fiat goes against both the law of the land and way marriage was intended by God.
I obviously agree with the first part of your second paragraph, something you would understand if you had been paying even the slightest attention. And you’re right that marriage as intended by God will remain despite what the government does or what the voters decide — but it would be redefined legally from what it has always been.
As for your “argument,” I will refer you again to Point 1.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
“sylamore,” are you saying Jesus didn’t love his neighbor? Because that was his interpretation and perception of what God intended with Creation, not just mine.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
Thus, redefining marriage by judicial fiat goes against both the law of the land and way marriage was intended by God.
That statement (as, for that matter, nearly your entire blog) epitomizes the reasons why the country’s founders intended (and in fact decreed by way of the establishment clause) for religion and state to be entirely separate. Perhaps you were sick that the day they taught that lesson in civics class. “What God intended,” which is a matter of some dispute around the world in case you haven’t heard, should can and can not be the basis for writing or interpreting civil law. Likewise, what “activist” judges might or might not do has no bearing on your practice of religion.
That said, I give up.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
I don’t believe I ever said it should be the basis, bob.
October 26th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
I am asking Dan to bring you a letter from “Focus on the Family” regarding Ford’s stance (vs. Corker’s) on all of this.
October 26th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
You quote Matthew 19:4. Based on that chapter, isn’t it God’s will that we should pass a constitutional amendement banning divorce?
October 26th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
If you say so, bob. By the way, I thought you had given up? I guess that cut and run strategy isn’t working out for you afterall. ;)
October 27th, 2006 at 9:08 am
Great article, Mick! I’m always amazed how some define separation of church and state. It’s obvious the Constitution wanted no official state religion, but the Left won’t be happy unless every legislator leaves their personal beliefs at the door when they walk in.
If I wanted an atheist to be my Congressman or Senator, I would have voted for one.
October 27th, 2006 at 10:46 am
You can’t legislate immorality
October 30th, 2006 at 9:12 am
When marriage first enters the historical record (~2500BC in Mesopotamia) it doesn’t seem to have any religious significance. It is an economic/familial arrangement. As far as I know the Bible is the first work of literature to give it a specifically religious character. Even by the most conservative accounts, the Bible postdates the earliest Mesopotamian witnesses by about 1500 years. It is more likely about 2000 years.
Historically speaking, marriage has no religious foundation. Of course, if you believe that what happens in the first few chapters of Genesis is true, then that’s a different story. That belief, however, can have no relevance in the American legal debate.
October 30th, 2006 at 1:20 pm
Of course, as Mick has already pointed out, Jesus defined marriage by quoting Genesis in Mark 10. But then again, what did the Christ know?….he obviously was not aware of the Mesopotamian economic arrangement. Quoting Genesis…. oh, what was that simple carpenter thinking?
October 30th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Right. But you are dealing with tenets of a specific belief system. I’m sure they’re meaningful for you, but they are certainly not for all Americans.
I was only commenting on the alleged “fundamental religious foundation of marriage.” Historically speaking, this is demonstrably false. The biblical view is a comparatively late innovation.
October 31st, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Well, JH, this is just me (as you pointed out), but my God is not limited by the parameters of recorded history. I’m quite certain God had a marital plan long before the first Mesopotamian took a walk down the economical arrangement aisle.
As to our politicians, I’ve never understood why some people expect elected officials to leave their religious beliefs behind. If my Congressman is a Muslim/Jew/Atheist/etc., I expect him/her to act like a Muslim/Jew/Atheist/etc.
Likewise, if my Congressman is a Christian…
October 31st, 2006 at 2:21 pm
The point of disagreement is what it means to “leave their religious beliefs behind,” and what it means for a congressman “to act like a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Atheist.” The first amendment does not permit Congress to make a law which establishes religion. I won’t even get into interpreting that, but whatever interpretation we do adopt, a congressman must abide by that. If that interpretation entails “leaving his religious beliefs behind,” then I suppose Christians cannot be congressmen.
October 31st, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Well, I’m certainly no lawyer, but it doesn’t seem intuitive to think the framers of our Constitution would want the men and women legislating this country to be devoid of God.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
Just my opinion, but as long as they are not making a specific religion THE official American religion , I don’t know where the problem is.
October 31st, 2006 at 3:17 pm
You’re using loaded terms again. There’s enormous disagreement over what it means for the country to be “devoid of God.”
At any rate, a few of the framers wouldn’t have minded at all the prospect of the nation being devoid of God. Most especially the god you’re thinking of.
October 31st, 2006 at 4:07 pm
I think you misread….my statement was regarding elected officials being devoid of God. But moving on….I’m sure you’re right, I’m sure there were a few framers who wouldn’t have minded an atheist nation. Fortunately, they were apparently in the minority. And that’s how democracy works.
And I would be curious to find out what god it is you believe me to be thinking of.
October 31st, 2006 at 6:43 pm
The Christian one.
(That “minority” included Jefferson, primary architect of the constitution.)
November 1st, 2006 at 10:00 am
Jefferson either wrote or said:
“the Christian religion, when divested of the rage in which the clergy have enveloped it, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and freest expansion of the human mind.”
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
“The Bible is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”
———-
So was Jefferson a mere public Christian? Probably so, looking at some of his writings after his administration. However, his public works were those of a Christian.
If Jefferson was a member of the non-Christian minority, I’d be interested to see what the Christian majority looked like.
November 1st, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Jefferson produced a version of the New Testament with all the miracles and other supernatural things cut out. He admired Jesus’ moral teachings. He did not think him the son of God.
November 2nd, 2006 at 10:06 am
And you’re referring to Jefferson’s “Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted From the New Testament for the Use of the Indians”. A tool used to evangelize the Native Americans which actually did contain several of Christ’s miraculous healings. It says nothing about Jefferson’s own viewpoints.
Were some of Jefferson’s detailed thoughts on Christianity a little different from most of us today? Yea, probably so. Is there anything in his history that would lead one to believe he expected Christians public servants to leave their Christianity at the door? Not that I’ve seen.
November 2nd, 2006 at 1:11 pm
I’m not aware of the Indian angle. It’s original purpose was certainly not that, though it might have been later adapted for it. Jefferson’s gospel did not contain the virgin birth, the death or resurrection of Jesus, and most of the miracles. These are foundational things to Christian belief. If you don’t believe Jesus was the son of God, that he was crucified and later raised from the dead, you are not a Christian. Period.
If taking your Christianity with you into Congress entails enmeshing the state with your religion, then he certainly would expect you to leave it at the door. This is the thinking that lies behind the first amendment. The founders, Christian and non, were absolute in their belief that religion and state must not intertwine at all. Bitter experience in Europe had taught them this.
November 2nd, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Well, we’re just going to have to disagree on Jefferson’s teaching tool for the Indians.
And it appears we are now left with our personal interpretations of the 1st Amendment which aren’t going to jive no matter how long we go back and forth, so I will say in closing….it’s been nice discussing this with you, and may God bless your journey.
November 2nd, 2006 at 2:24 pm
Thank you and may He bless yours.
March 27th, 2008 at 8:54 am
[...] More on Amendment One: there were 28 well-deserved comments on this topic, but the amazing part is how the arguing [...]